00:00 | Why Money Conversations Are So Hard

I'm Laura Spiller, and I'm the founder and clinical director of Heights Couples Therapy. We specialize in relationship therapy, all kinds of relationships. We work with individuals on relationships, all the way through business partners, parents and children, siblings, couples, polycules, and all kinds of relationships. That's our specialization.

Today I'm talking about the difficulty that we have in our relationships talking about money, what shapes the alarms that go off for us in those conversations, and how we can have more connected conversations.

One of the reasons I wanted to talk about this is that money is such a common stressor in relationships. It can be a stressor because it creates fireworks when people talk about it and results in conflict. But just as often, one of the big stressors is the fact that we find ourselves avoiding money talks.

Important things that need to be discussed, decisions that need to be made, and long-term planning can be blocked, hindered, or just not happen at all when one or both partners in a relationship are avoiding important conversations about money and financial decisions.

In fact, only about 29% of couples in one study were found to regularly discuss finances. And one in four relationships can have the stress of a hidden financial secret.

I'm glad we're talking about this because money concerns can run the full range. There can be really common differences. One person may come from a background where having money means spending money, while another partner may view having money as accumulating and saving money.

As we know, a dollar can only be used one way, one time, so you can't always do both of those things.

Sometimes couples have everyday conflicts about whether to keep their finances separate or how much to merge them. And obviously, you're different people with different backgrounds, so you're going to have different spending priorities.

Then it can start to emerge into more difficult issues where there's recurring conflict about it. There may be fights over spending or familial obligations, such as when one person feels pulled to help a family member who isn't a family member to their partner. That can result in conflict.

Feelings of inequality can shift into more of a power issue.

Then, of course, there are more serious concerns that are outside of what we'll be talking about today, including severe chronic financial avoidance, hidden spending and debt, sometimes referred to as financial infidelity, as well as situations where money is used for power, control, or coercion.

Those are on the spectrum of ways that money concerns can stress a relationship, but they're beyond what we'll be talking about today.

04:09 | When Money Is About More Than Money

One of the big reasons talking about money can cause so much stress in a relationship is that there is the surface conversation about a spending decision, but it really isn't always just about that.

It can tap into deeper meaning in the relationship.

It can touch whether we feel trusted by our partner or whether we feel we can really rely on and trust our partner to be with us in this money-management journey. It can touch on feelings of unfairness. It can make people feel like they're not important and that what's important to them doesn't matter to their partner.

It can certainly be a place where couples feel like they're not on the same page or even on the same team.

What we know is that those kinds of stressors run deep.

When we talk about couples having different priorities or thinking about money differently, part of that is because so much of this is learned and shaped through our backgrounds in ways that can be really subtle and not even particularly on our radar.

It's obvious that we're going to have differences if one person comes from a family with more of a history of scarcity, while the other had a more privileged history where they didn't have to worry about money as much.

But there are also subtler questions.

How did your family talk about money? What kinds of things did they spend money on? How much was money used to socialize versus secure opportunities? How much was future-oriented versus present-oriented?

Those can be more subtle differences that we don't even realize are being downloaded into our system and creating our own expectations and priorities.

With all these differences, we've got to be really careful when we're having an important conversation with someone we care about and want to be teammates with that we're not slipping into a conversation about who is right. Instead, we want to come at it with more curiosity about understanding our partner and what matters to them.

Even our definitions of what's “normal” are shaped by our backgrounds. Sometimes we think normal is obvious, but what's normal to one person may not be what's normal to the other.

Dining out is a good example.

Families can be very different in whether they go out to dinner regularly or prioritize eating at home.

One person can feel like dining out is completely normal. It's how you manage stress, manage busy schedules, and get the family fed.

For another person, it can feel excessive or wasteful because there are more economical ways to feed your family.

You can have really different views on what's expected and what seems like the right thing to do.

Even paying for convenience is an area where I see some really big differences. Depending on someone's background, it can come wrapped up in feelings of guilt or shame. The idea of paying for convenience can somehow feel like not living up to expectations.

Sometimes I'll hear couples disagree about whether to hire a housekeeper or someone to help with lawn and yard upkeep.

One person may actually feel that they're failing to live up to expectations of being a good enough wife, husband, or partner if they need somebody outside of the family to do things like housekeeping or yard maintenance.

For the other person, that can seem like a completely typical way to manage the stress of day-to-day life and even be a normal given.

You can see how that brings up much stronger feelings and makes those conversations a challenge.

09:03 | Security, Scarcity, and Financial Anxiety

One of the really big differences is how we relate to security.

If someone grew up with stable housing, predictable income, family members who could provide support, and the ability to accrue savings, there really is much more of a safety net.

There's room to make mistakes, so any one money decision isn't necessarily make-or-break or do-or-die.

Someone growing up in that environment often doesn't have the same alarms or conditioned anxiety associated with money decisions as someone who grew up with more scarcity.

If you saw the adults around you really struggling to talk about money or make money decisions, faced food or housing insecurity, or experienced your family going from security to insecurity because a parent lost a job, a business went under, or something else changed your circumstances, that can have a really big impact on how you think about the security and stability of money.

Sometimes, when you've seen somebody lose that stability, it can make it hard to trust that the money you're making and have right now is something you can rely on going forward.

Folks who have seen that rug pulled out from under them are understandably not always able to relax into, “Things are okay right now, so I'm pretty sure they're going to be okay in the future.”

It makes sense that there's more worry about how things could change.

11:24 | The Deeper Values Money Can Represent

When these things are so important and our partner doesn't see eye-to-eye or share that expectation or point of view, it really can activate our relationship alarm systems.

Money isn't neutral.

When we're having these conversations, they can tap into deeply wired, nervous-system-level values. Money taps into beliefs and longings for safety, security, and survival. It's also related to our ability to have freedom and make choices for ourselves. At times, there's a lot of status wrapped up in earning and spending. That can even be associated with one's view of self and having respect and dignity in the eyes of others.

Money can be associated with shame and fear: the fear of not having enough, being looked down on, losing stability, or losing freedom and choice. Sometimes, when a person sees themselves as “bad with money,” that can also be very tender and associated with shame. If you've made money mistakes in your past or you've been told by others that you're selfish or irresponsible, that can create wounds and tenderness around spending and spending choices. Shame usually makes us want to shut down. So this can be a situation where it's really, really hard to talk about money, especially if you and your partner aren't on the same page.

Some people have also learned that when money is spent on them or on their behalf, that's a message of love and care. So there can be feelings of safety tied to questions like: Do you care about me? Do you want to help me with the things that matter? Do you want to help me move toward my values and the life I envision? When there's conflict or resistance around those things, it can impact how safe, loved, and cared for we feel in the relationship. That's more true for some people than others. Again, it's one of those continuums where we can differ from the important people in our lives.

Having money does afford some freedom. It affords more choices. Sometimes the desire for safety, survival, and security can reduce those choices if long-term savings is the priority.

Often, when people are stuck in a really negative conversation cycle about money, one or both partners can feel controlled by the other and powerless.

14:50 | Money As Safety vs. Money as Freedom

If money really means safety, security, preparedness, and stability to one partner, that person may try to protect those meaningful values by advocating for planning, budgeting, careful tracking, fewer risks, and predictable plans. The intent is to prevent financial vulnerability, which is a lovely intention and an important value, to be a good steward of what you've been given and looking out for the future. But depending on how that gets enacted and how protective someone becomes in that struggle, it can come across as controlling even though that's definitely not the person's intention.

Similarly, if money is about choice and enjoyment for the other partner, they may value enjoying the product of their labor and hard work. They may feel safer with some spontaneity, some room to do fun things, some trust around spending, and the freedom to make some choices on their own without having to have them approved or justified.

That person may be trying to move toward those values, even though to the other partner it can feel like they don't care about the safety and security of the future. Especially if you're in a very polarized struggle, maximizing spontaneity can feel like not caring about the future or being reckless to the other partner.

When we get caught in a negative cycle about this, the things we do to create balance for ourselves can become danger signals for our partner. We may try to advocate, make our point, help our partner see where we're coming from, or even help them see our point of view.

Sometimes it can come across as: Either you're irresponsible or you're controlling.

But if you can slow this down and surface more of the underlying meaning and emotional experience, you can have a really different conversation with your partner. What we want to do is help you use these conversations to understand each other better, really know each other better, and communicate that sense of, “I want us to be on the same page. I do care about what matters to you.” Then together you can co-create ways forward that take into account what's important to both of you.

18:45 | What Happens When Your Relationship Alarm Goes Off

We can get into a very reactive, protective place when our alarm goes off during these conversations.

We've talked about all the ways money is tied to deeper meaning, so it makes sense that even if you're trying to decide something fairly small, like whether to go on a weekend away or hire a meal service, it can touch on those deeper questions:

Are we on the same page?

Do we care about the same things?

You may hear one person say, “Why did you buy that?”

The other may push back with, “Why do you need to track everything? Why can't we enjoy our money?”

What I'm going to encourage you to be curious about is: What is the deeper concern underneath these surface fights?

For one partner, it may be: Can I trust you with our future?

For the other: Do I still have some freedom and the ability to make choices? Can we enjoy the product of our hard work?

If you're only talking about the pros and cons of that particular spending choice, you're probably going to go around and around in circles.

What I often see is one person saying, “This is why this is a good idea,” and the other responding, “Well, this is why my idea is better.” Neither person is really trying to take the perspective of the other. Both have their walls up, so they're keeping out what their partner is actually saying. You're not getting anywhere, and you're missing an opportunity to understand and know your partner better.

21:15 | Understanding The Attachment System Behind Money Fights

Let's back up a little and talk about how we as couples therapists see these kinds of conflicts and, more broadly, how we see distress in relationships.

We're all imbued with a pretty strong attachment system as humans. We need it to survive as infants. We have an attachment system that helps infants sound the alarm and reach out for care from an adult caregiver. And it's wired into us as adult caregivers to feel the alarm when something is distressing our infant and to be moved to care for them. As we get older, that attachment system transfers from the parent to the most important people in our lives, our significant others and partners.

We're wired to want a person we can count on, who is in it with us for the long haul, who is on our team, and who wants to be close to us. Often, we also need to see ourselves as worthy of that closeness and care from our partner.

So when there's a fight, even about a spending decision, it can bring up that same attachment system that says, “Danger, danger.”

When there's a threat or conflict in an important relationship, it can activate a very real sense of pain and threat in our bodies. When we feel alarms like anger, fear, or shame, we're naturally going to move to protect ourselves. There's an automatic armor that comes up.

23:39 | The Protest and Withdraw Cycle

Generally, we as humans have two broad ways of protecting ourselves when closeness and belonging in our most important relationships feel at risk.

About half of people are moved to protest and try to pull the other person closer, to get some connection and feel like the other person is registering them and is there for them.

In money conversations, those protective behaviors may look like complaining or demanding: “You said we would buy a car. We need to buy this car now.” “I'm not going to wait any longer.” “Why are you so stingy?” “Why are you so rigid or controlling?” Sometimes it can come out as questioning. I've even seen clients who will literally give their partner a PowerPoint with all the ways they're right, why their decision makes sense, and how their partner is wrong.

It's a way of trying to turn up the engagement in the conflict to bring the other person close: Help me feel like you care. Show me that I matter. Come closer to me. Hear me.

Then there's the other way that people protect themselves when there's a dangerous interaction with their partner. Sometimes we look at this person and think they're unimpacted or unaffected, but that's really not true. Often, they're immediately reacting to make sure they're not overwhelmed by conflict with the person they care about most. They're doing everything they can to protect themselves and, often, to protect the relationship by shutting down, withdrawing, or stepping back.

Sometimes the fear is, “If I don't slow this down, I'm not going to be my best self. I'm going to bring anger or do something that's going to make this conflict worse. I need to pull back and get away from this so I can regulate myself.”

On the outside, that can look like going quiet or shutting someone out. In money conversations, it can look like avoiding talking about finances altogether. This may be the partner who is more resistant to having those talks.

Sometimes they try to turn down the alarm and the risk of conflict by going really logical. This might be the person who pulls out the spreadsheet as if to say, “This isn't an emotional thing. If you could just see the numbers, this is a clear decision.” Sometimes they can get defensive or minimize and dismiss the other person's concerns.

They're trying to shut down the conflict and any potential risk of fighting, again to keep themselves regulated but also, in a way, to protect the relationship from conflict.

You can see how, if you've got both of these things happening, money conversations can become an endless loop that doesn't go anywhere.

The more one person protests, the more the other tries to slow down or shut things down.

The protection of one becomes the danger signal for the other. If one person gets defensive, it sets off the alarm even further for the person who wants to be understood: “You aren't hearing what matters to me.” “You only hear what's important to you.” “You don't think my concerns are important.” “I don't matter.” That increases the protest.

As the other person raises the intensity, gets louder, or becomes more critical, the other partner has an even greater risk of becoming overwhelmed. They're going to shield up, become more defensive, try harder to explain and justify, or retreat even further. They may shut down, leave the conversation, or avoid the conversation altogether.

At worst, this can become attack-attack, with blame, defense, and counter-blame. It can really escalate.

Sometimes this is when we say things that we regret later or lash out at one another. What we're really trying to do is prevent it from getting to this point.

30:01 | When Money Becomes About Power

Sometimes money concerns can become about power because money is so wrapped up in choice and getting to have a say in something important.

One person can feel very alone in their responsibility for the future and the finances. That puts a lot of worry and weight on them. It can feel very lonely. If things are really out of balance, that may also be the person who tends to have more power to make decisions or have the final say, which means the other person may feel dependent or dismissed.

One of the places I see things start to become more escalated is when it begins to feel like power and control. One person may feel like they have to ask for permission. Things can become so imbalanced that one person feels all the pressure and responsibility, like they're carrying it alone, while the other feels shut out and unable to have a say or make their own choices.

At the extreme, money can be used to restrict someone's access, keep them isolated, limit their ability to make choices about their future, create fear, or punish them. That's obviously beyond the scope of this webinar, and it's a situation where having a trusted professional or seeking professional support is an important step. That's different from financial accountability.

Financial accountability is important for both partners. It's not fair for one person to be solely responsible for watching out for the future and managing all the finances. There should be shared limits. Both partners may have to make decisions that protect future stability and honor the concerns you've established as a couple about your future and resources.

There needs to be shared decision-making and communication so there's clarity about those priorities and what's happening in the financial picture.

33:29 | Stop Trying to SOlve the Money Problem First

So how do we get to a place where there is shared accountability for making values-based financial decisions?

What I'm proposing here is slowing these conversations down and shifting them, at least initially, away from making the decision. Instead of, “What do we do here? Do we buy this or not?” shift the conversation toward: Help me get to know you. Help me understand you. Help me see you. Help me know where you're coming from.

Especially if you've been together for a while, this cycle can go on autopilot. It's going to come up before you even know it. So find some way to shift together from, “We're trying to figure out who's right and make this decision,” to, “Let's talk about this in a different way.” “Let's try to create more safety and care in our relationship so that we can approach this together and have better conversations.”

Try to hit that pause button.

It may sound like: “Hey, I can feel that urgency coming up in me. I can start to feel that panic, and I can see you going quiet and shutting down.”

Or even something simple like: “Hey, this feels like that same pattern we get into whenever we talk about money. I don't want to do that with you. I want this to go better.”

If you're going to name the cycle and try to pause it, it's important to pair it with a caring message so your partner doesn't hear, “Here's that cycle that you do.”

You're saying: “This is the thing that we do. And because I care about you, I don't want us to get into that. I want to have a better conversation with you.”

35:52 | Name What is Really Underneath the Conflict

Once you can slow things down enough, this is your opportunity to go underneath and bring the conversation back to your underlying values.

The alarm tells you that something that matters to you is being threatened. You wouldn't feel that “uh-oh” or move into armored, protective behavior if it didn't matter to you.

So this is where we're asking you to take a little risk and name some of that meaning and the feelings that come up in these conversations.

Ask yourself: What's underneath this for me? What feels threatened? Is this about safety? Freedom? Fairness? Trust? Dignity? Is it about an old wound?

See if you can identify that for yourself and perhaps even name it for your partner.

Ideally, you might be able to go a little deeper: What feeling does this bring up in me? What am I afraid might happen?

The goal is to make sure you're sharing something meaningful about yourself rather than complaining about your partner. If you find yourself about to say something about them, such as, “You spend too much,” or “Why do you have to be so controlling?” ask yourself instead, “What am I feeling? What feels threatened to me?”

Then you may be able to say: “I'm scared. When I see our spending go up, I start to worry about the future, about whether we're going to have enough and whether we're going to be okay. That makes me really nervous. It makes me feel unsettled.”

Or, on the other side: “I start to feel so tense, almost trapped and boxed in. When many of my purchases are scrutinized and questioned, it feels really bad to me, like you don't trust me.”

These are tender and difficult things to talk about. But this type of sharing typically doesn't automatically bring up our partner's shields, armor, and defensiveness in the same way.

38:55 | Turn Toward With Curiosity

The next step is trying to turn toward each other with curiosity and care for that sharing. You're using this conversation as a way to know each other more deeply. You may have to put down the decision, put down the defense, and put down advocating for your own point of view so you can turn toward your partner with curiosity.

The goal is definitely not to win this conversation. It's to open the door toward more connection and understanding.

Just as you asked those deeper questions of yourself, now bring that curiosity to your partner: “Help me understand what this brings up for you.” “What are you trying to protect?” “What are you worried that I'm not understanding?” “Help me understand what you hear me saying here.” “What would help you feel less alone in this?”

This part is hard for people, especially because we can get so caught up in the alarm and advocating for our own point of view.

Sometimes it can be as simple as saying: “I want to understand you, not just make this decision.” “I don't fully get it, but I want to.” Even if you don't know the exact words, some way of saying, “I'm trying to slow this down, and I want us to talk about this differently,” can be really helpful.

Even if you don't understand, you can share appreciation: “I don't completely see where you're coming from, but I'm glad you're sharing it with me.” “I want to understand your history and how it's coming up here.”

It's important to remember that this wouldn't be so hard if being a team didn't matter to you. There's a desire for connection and care underlying these difficult conversations.

Being able to put more words to that can help you both feel less alone, less unimportant, and less uncared for.

You might say: “That does make sense to me.” “I didn't realize that you felt that way or that it scared you so much.” “I can see why this feels controlling to you.” “I want to be in it with you, and I can hear how important that is.”

It's also fair to say: “I don't agree with everything, but I understand more about why this is so touchy for you.”

Because the goal isn't necessarily agreement. It's bearing witness and helping each of you feel less alone in this conflict.

42:42 | Returning to the Financial Decision as a Team

Ideally, this helps you feel a little more connected and opens the opportunity to return to the decision you actually have to make. I understand that you have to make financial decisions. You can't focus only on the underlying feelings. You do need to decide whether you're paying for private school. You need to decide whether one person can take a lower-paying job. You need to decide whether you can afford a bigger house, buy a new car, or make a home repair. You need to be able to talk about those things.

But hopefully, you can now come from a more connected and knowledgeable place with a slightly different question: Are there ways to honor what matters to both of us? Is there more information we need to put more options or choices on the table? Can we come up with one next step for how we might solve this impasse or make this decision?

You may need to table the deciding part and let some of that connection sink in before you come back to the decision.

But ultimately, the question becomes: How do we make a decision that takes both of us into account?

You're two people with different sets of strengths and different sets of limitations. There really is a collaborative way to make the most of those strengths. If you can access a more caring, collaborative, and connected place before making the decision, you're probably going to come out with a better decision that makes the most of both of your strengths and values.

Sometimes, though, it's a digital decision. Someone's view is going to prevail and someone else's isn't. One of the things I sometimes say to couples I work with is that part of caring for each other can mean that we trade discomfort.

Sometimes I will open myself up to feeling more uncomfortable because I want to help you and care for what matters to you. Sometimes you will do that for me.

There really does need to be an equal trading off of that willingness to feel uncomfortable because you care for your partner and what matters to them. Where that can get into trouble is when it feels unbalanced or you don't feel seen.

It also doesn't work when people aren't talking about it. When we're talking about it, I can feel that my willingness to accept some discomfort is appreciated by my partner and helps them feel loved and cared for. When you're not talking about it, it can just feel like sacrifice that is meaningless. Then it can really start to feel unfair.

That's the end of the formal presentation. We've got a few minutes for questions if anybody has questions or things they want to talk about.

46:52 | Q&A: When One Partner Earns More

Audience Question: What happens when things are very asymmetrical and one partner earns much more than the other? How does that affect who has the power to be concerned about finances?

Laura Spiller: I've seen very healthy models of that where the partner who earns more is very accepting and acknowledging of the contributions that the other partner makes.

I think it's easier to create a sense of shared responsibility and accountability when there's recognition that money isn't the most important thing and that there are many ways the partner who earns less brings an equal amount of effort, care, and responsibility to the relationship.

When I see it go really well, there's a lot of respect, and that respect isn't predicated on who earns the most.

Financial decisions are still shared despite one person contributing more financially.

I think it is something to talk about and work through when not only is the earning unequal, but so is the knowledge about finances, the decision-making about finances, and the valuing of each person's contribution.

I don't think that asymmetry necessarily has to be an issue.

But if it's one of many types of asymmetries, then that's something that needs to be worked on to help the couple find a better balance where they're both being impacted by the other and caring and responding to the other.